Annoying Game Questions You Want Answered

hyzmarca · Post by **hyzmarca** » Thu Apr 03, 2014 4:10 am

OgreBattle wrote:In Shadowrun is there a functional difference between a cyborg who replaced his limbs with cyberware vs being a quadriplegic rigger who happens to be inside of the humanoid drone he pilots?

Yes. There's a huge difference mechanically. What exactly that difference is depends on the edition you're playing, but generally cyberlimbs will cost a lot more essence and the rigger will use the vehicle piloting rules.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Thu Apr 03, 2014 6:41 am

Is there a PrC that gives Bardic Music without requiring it, and preferably improves Spellcasting in the first level?

Basically I'm wondering if there's a better way to go from Duskblade to Sublime Chord, to get full casting, than dipping a level of Bard. It would be cool if one could go Duskblade9/(something that advances spellcasting and gives Bardic Music)1/Sublime Chord 1 or 2/Eldritch Knight the rest.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Thu Apr 03, 2014 7:30 am

Races of Faerun gives you the Spellsinger:
Requires "some amount of elven heritage, at least 1/8", Know Arcana 8 ranks, Perform (Singing) 8 ranks, Improved Counterspell, Skill Focus (Perform), 1st level Arcane spells without preparation
4+Int, d6, Cleric BAB, Good Ref and Will
Level 1 grants Bardic Music, Spellsong (actually useless), Compelling Song (add class level to Perform checks and Bardic Music Save DCs) and +1 Caster Level

Do you really want to set all those feats and skill points on fire?

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Thu Apr 03, 2014 7:43 am

Wow, no I don't. Fuck that.

I don't suppose there are any other classes with "this is meant to extend a partial casting class into a full casting class" PrCs out there, are there?

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Thu Apr 03, 2014 7:58 am

Might I suggest that you take a fucking full casting class if you want a full casting class? I mean, if your game starts high enough level that you don't feel too sad about the lost levels, you get the important class feature (Channel) at level 3, so a Duskblade 3/Wizard 7 still casts 4th level Wizard spells, and can Channel them. It's still not as good as Wizard 10 and no Duskblade levels, but it's better than trying stupid tricks (bonus points for trying stupid tricks to bypass requirements for other stupid tricks) just to get to the stage where you can one day cast 9th level spells after the game has already finished.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Thu Apr 03, 2014 8:04 am

I was just curious. Games pop up so rarely that this is purely hypothetical.

TiaC · Post by **TiaC** » Thu Apr 03, 2014 8:42 am

Prestige bard is better than normal bard for you there and the lost caster level won't matter once you enter SC. Also, why Eldritch knight instead of Abjurant Champion?

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Thu Apr 03, 2014 5:40 pm

I was actually just looking at Abjurant Champion for Duskblade, and while Duskblades can easily qualify (Full BAB, Lesser Deflect on spell list, proficient in all martials, you probably want combat casting anyway), they just don't get a lot out of it. For one thing, they don't have any abjuration spells that grant an armour or shield bonus. And they really don't need one. They have Armoured Mage, and can take Battle Caster to improve it so that at first level you can cast in medium armour, and at 4th in heavy.

So while it's really easy, there's just not a lot of use for it. Though admittedly, it's probably still better than Eldritch Knight, for the fact that it gives class abilities at all.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Fri Apr 04, 2014 12:14 am

Prak_Anima wrote:For one thing, they don't have any abjuration spells that grant an armour or shield bonus.

Nor do most casters :|
Seriously, here are all the spells that feature covers that are found in the PHB:

Shield

That was not a valuable use of the list tag.

IIRC even Spell Compendium only adds one (a spell that gives you an Armour Bonus that applies against Incorporeal Touch Attacks). I can't help but feel that the class was poorly thought out.

That said, whether you take it or EKnight (which has one feat requirement fewer and also gives you a bonus Fighter feat, about which you probably don't care but I suppose you could take ImpCrit or something, and if you just wield a reach weapon you don't need to spend a feat on Combat Casting) is basically much of a muchness. You might pretend to care about some of the class features.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Fri Apr 04, 2014 12:39 am

Um. You forgot Mage Armour. And the class was literally built around the idea that you use Mage Armour (or Greater Mage Armour) and Shield instead of actual armour.

TiaC · Post by **TiaC** » Fri Apr 04, 2014 12:58 am

Prak_Anima wrote:Um. You forgot Mage Armour. And the class was literally built around the idea that you use Mage Armour (or Greater Mage Armour) and Shield instead of actual armour.

It's not an abjuration spell. If you want an armor bonus, use Greater luminous armor instead.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Fri Apr 04, 2014 1:12 am

Ah, right. I forgot because that makes NO DAMNED SENSE.

So the class was even more shittily designed.

NineInchNall · Post by **NineInchNall** » Fri Apr 04, 2014 1:38 am

Koumei wrote:Races of Faerun gives you the Spellsinger:
Requires "some amount of elven heritage, at least 1/8", Know Arcana 8 ranks, Perform (Singing) 8 ranks, Improved Counterspell, Skill Focus (Perform), 1st level Arcane spells without preparation
4+Int, d6, Cleric BAB, Good Ref and Will
Level 1 grants Bardic Music, Spellsong (actually useless), Compelling Song (add class level to Perform checks and Bardic Music Save DCs) and +1 Caster Level

Do you really want to set all those feats and skill points on fire?

You had Races of Faerun open and didn't look at the very next class after Spellsinger? Warrior Skald gives bardic music and requires

Concentration 6 ranks
Perform (poetry, any others) 9 ranks - Note that I have no idea how this is supposed to be parsed in 3.5. Perform worked differently in 3.0, as I recall.
Power Attack
Cleave

Assuming the Perform requirement is met by 9 ranks in Perform (poetry), the class requirements are pretty much things you were going to be picking up anyway as a Duskblade/Sublime Chord.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Fri Apr 04, 2014 1:49 am

Prak_Anima wrote:Ah, right. I forgot because that makes NO DAMNED SENSE.

It's likely that the actual designers of the class forgot that, too.

And generally, it seems to be that Arcane spells fall into schools based on the description of how they work (Mage Armour conjures up some magical armour), whereas Divine spells fall into schools based on the end result (sure, Sanctuary makes people unable to go through with attacks like some kind of mind-affecting thing, but the end result is you're not harmed so clearly that's Abjuration, not Enchantment).

NIN: I had already gone through the Completes, Dragon Compendium, and 3-4 other FR books, so I stopped as soon as I found something. Had I not found it in that book, I likely would have skipped to the point where I said "Fuck you, just play an actual goddamn Wizard, it's better for you, works from level one and the DM is less likely to tell you to fuck off".

TiaC · Post by **TiaC** » Fri Apr 04, 2014 3:08 am

Koumei wrote:
Prak_Anima wrote:Ah, right. I forgot because that makes NO DAMNED SENSE.
It's likely that the actual designers of the class forgot that, too.

The example they use is mage armor, so they definitely did.

If you dip bard, AbChamp is even better for you as you can use it to set your Bard CL to your BAB to raise your SC CL.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Fri Apr 04, 2014 3:31 am

NineInchNall wrote:
Koumei wrote:Races of Faerun gives you the Spellsinger:
Requires "some amount of elven heritage, at least 1/8", Know Arcana 8 ranks, Perform (Singing) 8 ranks, Improved Counterspell, Skill Focus (Perform), 1st level Arcane spells without preparation
4+Int, d6, Cleric BAB, Good Ref and Will
Level 1 grants Bardic Music, Spellsong (actually useless), Compelling Song (add class level to Perform checks and Bardic Music Save DCs) and +1 Caster Level

Do you really want to set all those feats and skill points on fire?
You had Races of Faerun open and didn't look at the very next class after Spellsinger? Warrior Skald gives bardic music and requires
Concentration 6 ranks

Perform (poetry, any others) 9 ranks - Note that I have no idea how this is supposed to be parsed in 3.5. Perform worked differently in 3.0, as I recall.

Power Attack

Cleave
Assuming the Perform requirement is met by 9 ranks in Perform (poetry), the class requirements are pretty much things you were going to be picking up anyway as a Duskblade/Sublime Chord.

But Warrior Skald doesn't increase spellcasting. It's still nominally better than dipping Bard since it has full BAB, but, meh.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Fri Apr 04, 2014 3:41 am

Seeing as it's all hypothetical at this point, that level of Bard lets you fill up on Abuse Magic Device, which means you can prepare your Cleric spells with a Candle of Invocation, and now you can Channel your Cleric spells.

If you were taking Duskblade up to level 13 or whatever it is that grants "Full Attack Channel", then you could grab a Spiked Chain and Whirlwind-Channel Heal spells (or Slay Living or whatever).

"I HAVE A PLAN! EVERYONE SURROUND ME, I'LL CUT YOU BACK TO FULL HEALTH WITH MY CHAIN!"

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Fri Apr 04, 2014 3:43 am

That is amazing and the best possible reason to dip bard for this. Or hell, Just use some cleric and say you're a cleric of (Faerunian bondage goddess)

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Fri Apr 04, 2014 3:51 am

Prak_Anima wrote:(Faerunian bondage goddess)

Loviatar (LE) is the primary bondage goddess, however some attribute some amount of it to Shar (NE) the spooky shadow lady, then there's Llolth (CE) of course, and Sune's (CG) favourite weapon is the whip, which represents a silken sash, so presumably that "goddess of hedonism" likes friendly fun-time bondage with blindfolds and light arm-binding and stuff, rather than the hardcore stuff. Oh and JesusIlmater (LG?) is a male god who is into being crucified and beaten. Oh, possibly Sseth (CE), given he/she/it empowers followers with the creation of multi-tailed scourges that turn into snakes, and holds domain over snakes, including constrictors. Selune (CG) also might be into it, I can't remember.

There are probably others, but those are the ones I know. There are reasons why I like playing in FR.

TiaC · Post by **TiaC** » Fri Apr 04, 2014 4:05 am

Oh, just found the Heartfire Fanner from Dragon 314 p. 23. The prereqs are pretty bad, but the class is pretty awesome.

Available here:
http://birdsnestnaelvich.wikidot.com/fo ... fanner-prc

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Fri Apr 04, 2014 4:33 am

TiaC: That's pretty much the ideal dip to transition from Duskblade to Sublime Chord. Thanks.

Koumei: PF Inquisitors definitely need more BDSM

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Fri Apr 04, 2014 8:10 pm

Is it just me, or does anyone else think two weapon fighting might have been split up into three core feats purely to give Two Weapon Rangers a full combat style?

On a related note- How the fuck is Manyshot supposed to work, and why would you ever take it?

By my reading, Rapid Shot works fine, you take a full attack, you get your attacks from BAB plus 1. But Many Shot, you take a standard action--which precludes taking a full attack--to fire two arrows plus one per five BAB over 6, to a max of four at BAB 16. In other words, a 16th level character can Rapid Shot for 5 arrows with five attack rolls (with two of them at your highest BAB) at -2 each, or Manyshot for... 4 arrows with one attack roll at -8?

Am I missing something, or did WotC just write a feat that only allows you to make your normal number of attacks at about the average penalty of your iteratives?

ishy · Post by **ishy** » Fri Apr 04, 2014 8:36 pm

Which means you can function as an archer without making a full attack, if you for example need to move out of the way of a rolling boulder.

tussock · Post by **tussock** » Tue Apr 08, 2014 7:08 am

TWFing (pronounced "twiffing") is three feats because in 2nd edition the best thing EVAR was using two longswords, and so Drittzt used two scimitars and just never fought large critters where that would matter, so everyone hated him. Drama-Nerds hating things in 2nd is where all the real problems in 3e come from.

Like Clerics who are better than you so you can more easily trick people into playing one. That was a marketing point in early 2000.

Where was I? Right. So for 3e, one of the designers wanted the zweihander or doppelsword or flamberge or claymore or whatever to be the best choice instead, because Braveheart. So they gave big weapons a bigger Str bonus to damage, and also made TWFing cost four feats, but gave it to Rangers for free, because Dritzt.

3.5 made Rangers "better" by cutting that to three feats and letting them use bows instead. Improving the game at a stroke. Like every change in 3.5, all so wise.

Manyshot is where you want to move and also be relevant, but you're a Fighter so you can't. They fixed this by letting archers, who have range anyway, move a little bit at high levels. Shame about the relevance bit.

OgreBattle · Post by **OgreBattle** » Tue Apr 08, 2014 7:25 am

hyzmarca wrote:
OgreBattle wrote:In Shadowrun is there a functional difference between a cyborg who replaced his limbs with cyberware vs being a quadriplegic rigger who happens to be inside of the humanoid drone he pilots?
Yes. There's a huge difference mechanically. What exactly that difference is depends on the edition you're playing, but generally cyberlimbs will cost a lot more essence and the rigger will use the vehicle piloting rules.

Would the limbless rigger in the human-shaped-vehicle be able to do everything a street samurai does, or better than them?